How To Have The Difficult Conversations With Chad Brown

Transcript:

Jared Ward: 0:39

Hey everybody. This is Chad Brown. So Chad is a founder coach. Can you explain that a little bit? What is a founder coach?

Chad Brown: 0:47

So well, you know very well.

Jared Ward: 0:49

I do. Oh, I know very well.

Chad Brown: 0:50

yes, but I get to work with founders to scale their vision to their team. That's the best way that I think of it. Most founders anybody who's listening to this, that has founded a company, who's an entrepreneur knows that one of the most challenging things is to take what you have in you that vision, that drive, that care and to scale it to your team, and it's incredibly difficult. In fact, that's where a lot of businesses fail is because the founders driving and the people aren't on the same page with them. They don't have the same care for the product, the client, the difference, the vision, the mission, and so that's what I help founders do.

Jared Ward: 1:32

Absolutely so. I've experienced that myself. So the reason why Chad is on the podcast today he's. He is a dear friend of mine. We go way back, so he was actually. He was my. He'd been my coach for, oh gee, probably over a year, over a year. Yeah, yeah, over a year of really intense coaching, doing exactly what you were just saying.

Jared Ward: 1:54

I was luminous, was at like a precede stage like very early, very raw. We had just gotten money in and we were dealing with a lot of things. So Chad helped me work through a lot of those things that he's talking about. So I got a couple questions here. This is the exact perspective that I wanted to bring onto the podcast. So my audience is more e-commerce founders. That's that's who I'm going for. But the whole point of ops unfiltered is to have unfiltered conversations about the messy beginnings of companies, and I think I feel I know that a lot of e-commerce founders could probably get a lot of value out of this conversation. So I have a couple rapid well, I guess not rapid fire questions, just a couple questions to get us started going in the conversation. What? What is the biggest silent killer of an organization?

Chad Brown: 2:52

The biggest silent killer of an organization? That's an interesting question. When you say silent, does that mean something that people don't notice and notice happening?

Jared Ward: 3:01

Yeah, so that was an intentional word. Yes, like, the reason why I said silent is because I think that's probably the most important type of killer. Yeah, yeah because if something was just like so blatant and out there like it'd be obvious and you just be like, yeah, stop that.

Chad Brown: 3:17

Yeah.

Jared Ward: 3:17

I think the biggest thing is that kill especially e-commerce companies or even SaaS companies. It's the silent things.

Chad Brown: 3:25

Yeah, it's things that you choose not to.

Chad Brown: 3:29

It's anything you're not talking about. To me, anything that you're unwilling to talk about is what's going to ultimately be your demise. What we resist persists and as we resist it, we don't want to look at it, and so then it becomes the thing that actually takes us out right. So if that can look like conflict between partners or conflict between founder and executive team, that can look like us not talking about the reality of where we actually are as a company in revenue, in the market, you know all of that sort of stuff. A lot of founders avoid that conversation because they don't want people to worry, or they don't, you know they want to make people feel safe or secure in their position, or they just don't know how to talk about it, and that ultimately, will be the demise, because you'll be avoiding it and the specific things that are needed can't be addressed.

Jared Ward: 4:30

Have you heard of Y Combinator?

Chad Brown: 4:32

No.

Jared Ward: 4:32

Y Combinator. They're a, so they're a startup fund, almost like a university.

Jared Ward: 4:37

Okay, they they're very close to, like a university, monetization that's that's. That's how they make money, so they'll accept startups, they'll also fund them, but they all of their founders go through, like rigorous courses and, like us, actual semesters. Yes, anyways, I would say they're the most experienced on what kills young companies, and something that they always talk about like a common word or a phrase used is the founder distortion field, and it's like it's kind of what you're talking about, where the founder comes in and when he's unwilling to see where his product actually currently is. Yes, the perception of it to his customers. It kills an organization.

Chad Brown: 5:25

Yeah.

Jared Ward: 5:25

Because a lot of times when you hire your first hires, if I, if I have a founder distortion field, I'm hiring somebody, I personally I believe setting expectations is the most important thing and the well. What expectations will you have to be real with where you're at right now. Like right on, this is where the product is right now, like there are no secrets, right?

Chad Brown: 5:50

on and that what the beauty of that is that you're going to get people who want to be in that challenge with you right. Every single founding of a company is a huge challenge. It's challenge after challenge after challenge after challenge. That's all you do is you are create, you are taking care of problems as a founder Sorry, that's your job. That is your job Period. You are addressing problems right, and if you want a team that is willing to jump in and address those problems with you, you have to be honest about where you're at. A lot of founders will paint a more unrealistic picture about where they are and what they're creating and all that sort of sort of try to win people over, get them on their team. The problem is is that those people aren't up for the challenge that's actually needed.

Jared Ward: 6:45

Seems like what you're alluding to is like really you have to take responsibility for what you're doing. How do you get founders to take responsibility for it's easy to say, like man, like this person just sucked, or like, yep, man, everybody that I hire just sucks. Yes, how do you, how do you shift their mindset to be like no, actually you are responsible for what you're creating.

Chad Brown: 7:12

Yeah Well, the thing that I always point out to founders is that they're the common denominator in every challenge they're having with somebody who's on their team. Guess who is the common? They are Right. So it's good to just have a conversation, not not like, oh bad shame, look how terrible you're doing. But it's good to just get. Get centered on that, get grounded on that is like I am the common denominator in all of the things that aren't working with the people that are on my team. That's good news. A lot of people would take that as bad news, but I actually say that's good news because if you are creating or contributing to what's not working, you can change what's not working. But if you're just sitting back saying, oh, there's no good people out there, there's no good help, everybody just wants money and doesn't want to give or doesn't care, the problem is that takes the oneness off of you and you don't get to do anything about it. It's just circumstance that surrounds you, and now that's going to ultimately be your demise. What?

Jared Ward: 8:15

do you think, how do you think somebody can choose to shift their reality away from them? Everybody sucks too. Oh, this is actually my. This is my fault. I need. I need to fix this Ownership.

Chad Brown: 8:33

Ownership is the only, is the only way Like true ownership, like I created or contributed to this, I either tolerated it. I you know, if there's something not working, I was willing to tolerate it and not say something because I'm people pleasing or I don't, I'm conflict avoidant or whatever. Just owning that, just saying, oh, I created this, well, that's good news, because I can create something else. So let's get clear on what's not working and then you know, much like the work you and I did. There's blind spots. Everybody has them, I have them, and the only way to see them is to have somebody who is just as committed to your vision as you are, that's willing to stand and give you the difficult feedback and say look, man, I don't think this thing that you're doing or this thing that you believe is contributing to what you say you want. So you might want to take a look at it and then we can explore what is possible outside of how you see it currently, like the belief you have around it.

Jared Ward: 9:39

Why do you think the default in us, like the, it's like our default reaction is to protect ourselves and not take ownership.

Chad Brown: 9:50

It's such a good color. It's survival. We're built this way For millions of years. We have been conditioned. It's like I say, it's written in our bones, it's in our DNA. To survive.

Chad Brown: 10:04

Human beings have two goals, and two goals only naturally, in the natural state, in the some people call it the lizard brain state. Right, so there's two goals only. The first goal is to stay alive, no matter what. Stay alive. The second goal is to preserve energy in order to stay alive. When we are in our survival brain, those are the only two goals we can see.

Chad Brown: 10:30

And so now, when I'm with you, if there's a conflict or if there's something not working and I see it, I'm unwilling to engage in it because that's gonna expend energy that I may need later to survive, to outrun the tiger, to survive the winter without much food, like all of that sort of stuff.

Chad Brown: 10:53

It's literally written in us, it is the default, it's the baseline. So the opportunity is to interrupt that and to awareness is the first step to any kind of change. So, as we become aware of like, oh, I'm in survival right now, I don't really wanna be here. It's not working for me because, look, we have the resources that we need now, most of us I mean, if we're talking to a very relatively wealthy demographic here, right, we're probably mostly in the United States, we're probably mostly have access to food and water and shelter and love, and so we're no longer needing those survival instincts all of the time, but we're now applying them to. Oh, I have this conflict with Jared, but I don't wanna engage in it because that might expend the energy that I need for later, and so I've convinced myself that I'm conflict diverse and that I don't wanna engage, and so then I just let it go.

Jared Ward: 11:58

Yeah, it's so interesting, I think, one thing that comes to my mind as you're describing that we create so many labels to justify our. We create so many labels to justify why we're not diving headfirst into our problems, like, oh well, I can't. You know how convenient I can't do this because I'm this. So, therefore, you know, I can't solve that problem.

Chad Brown: 12:27

And we always wanna put it outside of ourselves. Right, we wanna give, and this is the thing is. It sounds so cliche and maybe like overdone, but I really do tell founders like we're gonna get your power back and I know that sounds stupid, but I mean it Like literally we're going to take your power back because most likely, you've given your power to circumstance.

Jared Ward: 12:51

You get this reminds me of have you seen Crazy, stupid Love? Or Ryan Gosling and Steve Crowley is like we're gonna discover your manhood Any idea? When that was lost, he's like a strong case could be made for 1984.

Chad Brown: 13:07

That's it I mean it sounds so stupid, but when you experience, when you experience it like taking that back from circumstance, saying, no, I created this, I can create something different. It's not the market, it's not this other person, it's not my CEO, it's not my whatever it's like, no, it's. You. Take that back and now we've got a ball game. Now we can actually play in a realm that's gonna create the results that you want, rather than the results that you're just getting by default. I like that.

Jared Ward: 13:43

Do you think most people right now are just getting results by default? How do you know what normally triggers somebody to want to wake up and be like like there's something wrong here. I'm not getting the results that I want.

Chad Brown: 13:59

Well, I think maybe the first. I think it sounded like you were about to ask how do you know if somebody's letting circumstance drive their results or if they're driving their results, and I think that's a pretty interesting question, so I wanna answer that one first. Okay, does that work? Yep, it's language, it's all in the language, right? So are I'm trained to listen to language, and where people give the power, that's all my work. So, as you know, when I sit down with a founder, I listen to them for a really long time and I'm listening to the words that they use, because the words indicate where they put the power in their life, and that's gonna give me a good idea of how much are they looking to circumstance to create their results and how much are they committed to just creating their results.

Jared Ward: 14:49

Give me an example, cause I think what was so amazing and helpful for me is like it's hard to wake up and see where you're giving the power to your circumstances. What are some examples of language that, for example, I used or any one of your clients they were using at the beginning of their process?

Chad Brown: 15:10

You're right, it is difficult. In fact, sometimes it's impossible alone, because the fish doesn't see the water it's swimming in, and it can't until somebody comes up and says, hey, look, see, all this, this is water. This doesn't exist everywhere. There are other ideas. Right, and that's what I love so much about my work, is that I get to be that person that says like, look, this isn't the only way that it is. And so examples of some of that language that happens is like we've already called some of it out. Well, it's just so hard to get good help these days. Or it can look like well, the market is it doesn't allow. Like we can't grow in this market.

Jared Ward: 16:00

Yeah, january and December, like they were down for SaaS. Yeah.

Chad Brown: 16:05

So like it's okay One that I hear a lot because I get to work with sales teams a lot around their mindset and how they see things. I hear it all the time November and December are not good sales months.

Jared Ward: 16:16

Oh, I heard that all the time they were our best sales months.

Chad Brown: 16:19

That's right, that's exactly right and I'll listen to that and go well, that's interesting. It's interesting that you say it's the fault and I use that word loosely but it's the fault of November and December and the circumstances that surround it, like the holidays and the money and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's interesting that that's the challenge. You see that as the challenge and not how do we make November and December our best months of the year? That's a different question, or that's a different way of being. That's a different inquiry. Because now it's like possibility, it's creativity. What would it take Like if December could be-.

Jared Ward: 17:02

Oh, you just hit on the word possibility. I think that's a key word right there. Maybe so are you suggesting that when I'm in the mindset of survival, I'm immediately limiting the possibilities I have for success or for an outcome 100%, 100%. And changing that mindset all of a sudden opens up possibilities that you might not even see?

Chad Brown: 17:27

Absolutely, because when you're in survival, all you can see, all you can ask yourself is how do I survive, how do I get out of this alive? And my mentor, dan Tachini, always says you're not gonna get out of this alive, none of us are. So all this survival shit that you're doing, all of this protection, all of this blaming others so that you look good or feel good or feel right, all of that is preventing you from seeing the possibility that's out there for you. And once you ask yourself a different question, like I wonder how good this could get, or I wonder what I could create here, I wonder what I'm not seeing.

Jared Ward: 18:14

So what about what if we had an A B test where, like the A is, I have the mindset of November sucks, it's gonna be down, it's all good, no worries, we're probably gonna hit this number. And let's say, for the B test we have, it's a different mindset, it's. I wonder how we can have the best month ever in November. What if we get the same outcomes for both of those? What would you say? Is there still something important to notice in the differences?

Chad Brown: 18:49

Sure, I mean for me, which one do you like living in?

Jared Ward: 18:56

Probably the B yeah.

Chad Brown: 18:59

I want to live in possibility, I want to live in abundance, I want to live in pot, like there's something else we could do, creativity and and most look, most founders want to live in that. That's why they're founders they want to create something bigger than themselves, something that somebody told them was impossible Actually.

Jared Ward: 19:20

I have a great concept right here. So I'm actually seeing this all over LinkedIn right now. So right now, the common I guess, survival thing that you hear for e-commerce founders is meta ads to just take Not working. Yeah, just not like basic, like my brand just can't advertise. And it's almost like I see some who they're basically throwing in the towel and because that's the message is like it just doesn't work like it used to. Yeah, then I see such a stark difference between other founders.

Jared Ward: 19:57

Like there's a founder that I saw of a company called feet. He dropped meta ads 100% and is just like all in on experimenting with different things. It's really cool to watch his journey as he like he totally pivoted away from meta ads, which is the backbone. It is literally how some e-commerce companies that's how they made money. Of course it was just finding an actual like they were just getting a positive ROI on, or positive ROAS on, meta ads. So that's something that's super interesting. How would you coach a e-commerce founder who were saying, say, they came to you and like chat dude, like I, just I don't know if we're even going to do half as well as we did in 2023. Meta ads, they don't work. Yeah, you're telling me to open up possibility Like they don't work.

Chad Brown: 20:52

Sure, sure, well, another. Another thing that Dan Tachini always says is a man with a vision cannot be held hostage by a circumstances. A man with a vision or a person with a vision will not be held hostage by their circumstances. What that means is is that it doesn't matter the circumstance you're in and if the circumstances dictating it, well then we got a vision problem. Literally not.

Chad Brown: 21:21

I don't say this stuff like nice fluffy bullshit, like pie in the sky, feel good, manifestation, you know all of that sort of stuff. I say it like literally. You don't have a vision that you believe in deep enough that drives you to find something else that works. Human beings have reinvented themselves over and over and over and over again since the history, since the beginning of our existence, and so if you say that meta ads them not working is going to ruin your vision, your vision is weak. It means nothing to you, because otherwise you'd be like these other founders, you'd be out testing everything that's possibly there.

Chad Brown: 22:15

I've even watched you Jared over the last I don't know six, seven, eight months kill it on your LinkedIn engagement, like kill it. And you could have said the same sort of thing about any other circumstance, about ads or traditional sales or whatever, but I really I recognize that you and your team, you and I had a conversation about this at lunch, but you were like we, we have to figure out something else. No matter what, failure is not a possible failure is not an option, and the vision is so great that it draws me to take action in ways that I don't even know what it's going to take from me. Like when you started your LinkedIn campaigns, did you have any idea what that was going to have that was going to take from you?

Jared Ward: 23:00

No, all I knew was man. A lot of people are going to start seeing me now. That's right, no matter what right?

Chad Brown: 23:08

No matter what, no matter what. And that's the difference Is that you started to because, no matter what drives somebody into a feedback conversation circumstantial conversations like meta doesn't work. No feedback is available, you're not going to see any feedback, so you're not going to make any shifts and, yeah, you're going to die. Welcome to your future. You are going to die if meta, if meta ads, are the problem, but if you have a no matter what approach to it and it's like I'm going to grow this thing, no matter and dude, I have so much respect for you and your team because you're in a crowded space, you're taking on giants as competitors and it's like so what, we'll figure it out. Like this vision is great enough. I know that there's a place for us and I know that there's a need for what we've created, and so, no matter what, it's going to go.

Jared Ward: 24:08

Yeah, I guess I always saw so some prevailing thought nowadays in a prevailing thought in SAS businesses nowadays is man, B2B marketing and email sequencing just don't work anymore and it's something that, like me and Logan and Thomas, there are sales reps we get so jazzed about. We're like, like you guys really think like that's killing your business. So like I'll give you an example Like in 2015, 16, 17, you could, you could enroll a bunch of contacts in the sequence and you'd get decent reply rates and you get people to book demos. And it did. It just worked. It was like it's like the game was on easy mode. Buyers have gotten smart. So we're in 2023, 2024.

Jared Ward: 25:01

Dude, those sequences, they don't work as well anymore. You can still get some results, but buyers have gotten smart. Google's cracking down with new AI. People like they just don't like reading spam. So, honestly, it's something that's so funny to me is my sales reps love it when they see posts like that and they just dogged on it because they're like dude, I'm booking like 30 demos in a month because, no, none of y'all motherfuckers are cold calling. Yes, I'm cold calling and guess what? Nobody else cold calls. Yeah, I'm booking demos every day, that's right.

Jared Ward: 25:37

It's so funny, Like yeah.

Chad Brown: 25:39

And that's a. That's an example of the things that people are avoiding that they probably know would create results for them, but they're, but they're unwilling to like, put in the work and put in the practice and put in the discipline. Right, it's like if what happens is meta ads just become the scapegoat for your demise. That's all and no problem. I don't got any judgment around it for these founders, for these business owners, but that's going to be your legacy is that ads stopped working. You didn't do, you didn't want to do the work, you didn't want to grind, you didn't want to, you didn't want to test and and and get creative, and so you failed.

Jared Ward: 26:22

What's interesting is one one of. I don't pretend to know all the answers to the meta ads crisis I don't but I do think one of the answers is going all in on. Organic con is like with the rise of AI, I think so many people consumers they like to know who they're buying from.

Jared Ward: 26:43

And what the story is they like to connect to the brand. That's right. So a lot of times, a lot of these, these companies that are complaining about meta ads just not working and how that's taking the company it's like well, it's because maybe your business model was focused around acquiring new customers on meta at a at a profitable row. So it's One of the easy answers to dive into. That is hard is well, start making organic, real content. Like, do some founder-led content explain your story? And you're gonna eat shit for six months. That's right. But you'll figure something out just through organic content. Filming stuff at film labs, just throwing shit at the wall, like you'll get a video that gets like a million views. You will yeah, it's possible on TikTok and then those will convert to sales. That you just got to experiment, you got to put yourself out there. But here's the thing.

Chad Brown: 27:43

Jared, is that there will come a day, probably very soon, that those things no longer work. So then what are you gonna do? You're gonna roll over now and say, oh, organic content on LinkedIn doesn't work, I'm just gonna throw in the towel? Or are you gonna say what's next? What's next? What's next? And in order for you to get clear on what's next, you have to be clear on what's now. We say. I say there is no next without now, and most people don't know where they are now, like honestly know where they are right now, and that's I mean. You know, good portion of the first two months of my work with any founder is getting clear like where are we now? The real truth about where we are right. You had some team issues that you weren't willing to see at that point and we had to get brutally honest with ourselves about where we actually are now in order for there to be any kind of significant next. Next, move.

Jared Ward: 28:52

I would add to that, too, your contributions to why you're at the place where you're, at hundred percent, so you can stop doing those things that are contributing right on, right on, or at least start practicing something new, right?

Chad Brown: 29:07

so we're acting towards the vision in something, in new action, rather than beating yourself up or just acting in rebellion against what is maybe a little bit of a side tangent.

Jared Ward: 29:26

Something that's common you and I've talked about this on the side and coaching sessions. It's a common phrase used especially in Mormon and ex-Mormon culture is like shame and the shame cycle. You just talked about beating yourself up. How. How is beating yourself up sometimes not as noble a thing as we make it?

Chad Brown: 29:51

so good man. Shame is a scapegoat, like if I beat myself up enough, then you can't beat me up for my mistakes and my failures. So as long as I make myself feel like the shittiest person who doesn't deserve love, success, relationship, you know, all of those things that we really want. If I make up, if I, if I do that to myself, then I can't be hurt more by you. Now, how does that apply to business? Is that it just exactly what we've been talking about?

Chad Brown: 30:36

If I beat myself up about enough, about what's not working and how I'm an imposter, I don't belong here. I don't I. I don't know what I'm doing and therefore I'm wasting all these people's time. And what if they found out about me and all of that sort of stuff? If I do that to myself enough, then I don't have to see your feedback because look, I'm already. I already know all this, jared. I already know I'm shit, so I don't need to hear from you where I'm missing it and and so the. In that way, it becomes a tool. Now, it's not conscious tool, it's not something we do, it's not we. I don't wait, you know you, and I don't wake up in the morning and go. I'm gonna shame myself so that nobody else can touch me, but it's, it's something that we learned early on. It's learned behavior early on and we just haven't interrupted it yet so I just always tell my clients get over yourself.

Chad Brown: 31:34

You're not as significant as you think you are how does?

Jared Ward: 31:38

how did you get out of your shame cycle? I wouldn't say I'm out of it.

Chad Brown: 31:44

I would say I'm, I would say I'm practicing, not going to that space. Look man, my dad passed away in January and we didn't have a great relationship and I noticed where I wanted to go when he died, which was like all this shame about who, what I could have said, what I should have done, who I could have been for him, and those are all true and I'm I'm examining those so that I could create something different with my people that are still here. But I noticed myself wanting to shame myself and that shame can become an escape or an excuse not to learn from it and then go create something different. Because that's not what I'm gonna do with shame.

Chad Brown: 32:42

With shame, I'm just gonna sit around, get depressed, feel sorry about myself and I won't learn or change anything. And so I continually tell myself, when I feel that shame come up no, that's not gonna serve me. I get it, it's there, it's like part of me, it's like you know, carl Jung talked about befriending the dark side. Shame is that dark side of ourselves. So if, if we befriend the dark side, then we can actually use it. And so when I have a hold of the shame and I say, no, I'm not gonna use that. I'm gonna go this other direction of ownership, accountability and something new like discipline, and that's a daily process for me.

Jared Ward: 33:33

I think it it all love. The common thread between a lot of these discussions is it all comes back to giving yourself the power and not giving it away to external circumstances, and even even a shame cycle is sort of like that that's right. I'm in sort of it really is. It's a hundred percent that. And look, you're responsible for your own concept of worthiness or, and, frankly, your actions in, in in reference to what your view of worthiness or good is.

Chad Brown: 34:05

That's right that's exactly right. And shame just think about it right? So shame is a control tactic. You look at any cult. I study cults because I I'm fast what. I'm fascinated with human behavior, I'm fascinated by what motivates people and I'm fascinated by how people interpret the world that they're in. And most of us would watch some crazy cult documentary and we would be like why would you ever be a part of that? And what's true about the control that that cults maintain is they all use shame. They know it's their number one tool for control, number one. There is no other tool as powerful as shame. Now think about this. This is what's interesting to me is that we use it on ourselves to try to control, to try to feel like we are in control. The truth is, we're not in control. We are in control of very, very, very, very little, and that's what we believe and the action that we take on our beliefs. Those are the only things we're in control of.

Jared Ward: 35:22

So to close this loop a little bit, because I want to move on to something else, another part of the discussion you keep talking about like it seems the common theme here is like realize what you're doing right now that's getting you these results. You you probably don't like, yes, and then change so you can get a new result, a new life, a new outcome. What, what is, what is the best motivator to make that shift?

Chad Brown: 35:54

so to not go too deep in this, I actually don't think we change. You know, I always tell my clients that is like I've got good news and bad news for you. Good news is we're gonna create new results. Bad news you're not gonna change. So just get. Get with that meaning. These things are here to stay, like the, the thoughts that keep you down, the thoughts that keep you from creating results. They're not going anywhere. The difference is is that I'm gonna show you how you don't have to believe those thoughts, because those thoughts are not yours. Those thoughts are ancient. They've been here for millions of years.

Chad Brown: 36:35

You're not the first one who's felt like a failure. You're not the first one who's convinced yourself you're an imposter. You're not the first one who has used shame to motivate you or keep you imprisoned. That is an old story that you inherited, and if you believe it, then you acted out again. If you don't, if you choose not to believe it, then new things are possible. You become less significant in your own eyes and now you can be for something more significant, like building a bad-ass business that employs incredible people who are committed to it, and you get to get to instill in them this, this mentality of ownership for their own life. I mean the impact that you can have when you're less significant and you're not believing your own bullshit. Man, that's, that's it. That's the whole thing.

Jared Ward: 37:32

I love it okay to pivot the conversation something different. I want to dive in pretty as deep as we can here in the next 15 minutes or so. I want to actually get some good takeaways or I guess like some bullet points. Yeah, we've been very philosophical, yeah, of how something that's probably common with anybody who would ever listen to this or you have to be able to have difficult conversations with a founder or a co-founder or an employee or an executive team, just a co-worker.

Jared Ward: 38:16

I think every single person has things that they want to say to a co-worker or an employee that they're not saying, or it's so sugar coated and it's like a compliment sandwich. It's just a bunch of bullshit. What's your advice? Or give us a couple bullet points on how somebody can practice real time feedback. Yep, like, oh, this thing comes up and oh, that bugs me. I don't think she should be doing that.

Chad Brown: 38:52

Yes.

Jared Ward: 38:53

Or ah, that just rubs me the wrong way. How can you practice real time feedback with your team?

Chad Brown: 39:00

That's great. If we use the term real time feedback, that means that we're giving the feedback as soon as we see the breakdown. I would invite people to believe that or see that in their businesses. The sooner they address a breakdown, the less disruptive it is. But what happens is when we see little things that aren't right, we convince ourselves that well, they're just little, I can overlook them, I don't need to address them now, Time will take care of it, all of that sort of stuff. And I would say, no, that's actually what's producing your bigger breakdowns that you're spending all of your time working on.

Chad Brown: 39:48

Most founders. The biggest complaint I hear from founders is that they don't have enough time and they're always putting out fires. And I tell them it's because you are unwilling to give real time feedback period. If you were addressing these things when it was just this little, teeny, tiny like we have the shit or derv principle right these things, these breakdowns, they show up as little, tiny shit or dervs and it is shit, so you don't want to eat it and it looks uncomfortable to address. But you're like, ah, it's not that big of a deal, blah, blah, and you push it away. I'll talk about it later if he or she does it again.

Chad Brown: 40:28

That's right. And then pretty soon it comes back as a shit sandwich. It's a little bit bigger, it's a little bit deeper, it's a little bit more personal. It's now affecting something in the business and you're like, ah, I don't have the time right now for this, you push that away. Then it comes back as a shit three course meal. Pretty soon you've got a shit buffet and you can't ignore it at this point, because this means total breakdown if this is ignored. And now it's a really big deal.

Jared Ward: 40:56

Then normally ends in probably like a termination or an explosive conversation, or that's exactly right.

Chad Brown: 41:03

Yes, total disruptive to the total disruption to the system, to the team, to the product, all of that sort of stuff. So the invitation is like A when you feel it, when you see it, and this is what most founders are so good at this seeing what's not right early on, but the breakdown happens that they don't say anything.

Jared Ward: 41:27

And so, but not just founders, of course, also just employees, coworkers in relationships.

Chad Brown: 41:36

Well, those who are committed to the vision will see it earlier, because they're clear on where we're going and they're clear on this isn't going to get us there if we keep it going this way. So you asked how do we have these conversations? Well, first, be honest about your experience. So even the best thing you could do is, if this feels like a hard conversation for you, if it feels like a scary conversation for you, tell the person this feels like a scary conversation to have with you. I don't know how to do it right, just be honest. But I want to be honest with you because I care about you and I care about what we're up to. Can you hang? Will you hang with me in this conversation?

Chad Brown: 42:22

I'm sure I'm going to make mistakes, I'm sure I'm going to say things, maybe that I didn't mean, but will you stick with me long enough to where we can get a clear understanding on it? That's the first step. Just be honest. We want to look good, we want to feel good, we want to be right or we want to be in control, and all of those things are working against us in this situation, because when those are our goal, we want to go in there looking like we know what we're up to and we're going to say everything right and we're the right ones and we have all the information.

Jared Ward: 42:52

Or you just want to be liked. That's right, so you're just sugarcoating everything.

Chad Brown: 42:55

That's right, that's exactly right. And your role as a founder is not to be liked. I'm sorry, just not. And if that is your goal, you're destined for some hard day for sure. So be honest about your experience in the situation where you're coming from and most decent people. That's going to be such a trust builder with Right Like Jared. If I come to you and I'm like man, I don't know how to talk to you about this, because I want to be liked by you and I care so much about you and what you think of me. But we really got to address this thing where you hang in with me because I'm going to make mistakes, I'm going to, I'm going to blunder you know all that stuff. Are you willing to hang in that conversation with me? Trust goes through the roof. They're like oh yeah, this person's being real with me. They don't know what they're doing. I could help in this.

Jared Ward: 43:47

It feels like they're in it. Man, I've experienced so much on that side, like just the people pleasing, like ignoring the shit or nerves, and then you know eating the shit buffet. Yes, I think we've all done that. It was interesting that recently I had a I had to experience with one of my team members, one of our SDRs.

Jared Ward: 44:07

his name is Logan, so Logan is transitioning to closing and there was, I remember very distinctly there's one day because he crushed it, booking demos and I could just sense apprehension the week that he was supposed to be focusing a little bit more on closing and I remember that I, I remember so specifically, like oh there's the how you say it, the shit or nerve. Yep, and we were just sitting in a conference room and I could just tell he was uneasy and he was not wanting to say something like that. Like that was the shit or nerve right there, yes.

Jared Ward: 44:44

And I remember I just chose to call it. I was like dude, what's going on? Man? I you like, you feel really uneasy right now, really Like, is there something going on? Like let's chat through this. And after like a 30, 45 minute chat, he was, he was very, very nervous about closing and he was taking on too much responsibility over like over you know luminous failing, or or it's exceeding and and yeah it was, it was, that was.

Jared Ward: 45:16

That was a really cool example right there of where I was able to have that conversation right there. And yeah, I honestly feel so much closer to my teammates after that, after those types of conversations, of course, and and I just love when he or somebody else is willing to talk about those those intimate things, because it just shows that they're in it Like they do care, and I don't know, I, I, I would much rather have it that way the shit or nerve, the uncomfortable, like it's uncomfortable calling something out, it is, but I prefer that to not addressing something for three months, him not saying anything, and then we blow up at each other.

Jared Ward: 46:01

That's right Well what the fuck you were supposed to be closing. He's like well, you didn't fucking train me.

Chad Brown: 46:06

Yeah, yeah, just stuff like that, that's.

Jared Ward: 46:08

That's what it looks like A thousand.

Chad Brown: 46:11

Well, I'm working with a client right now that we're deep into their team. This is incredible team Rad company and they have had an executive in a position who hasn't been cutting it and they haven't been letting him know. They haven't been when they, when they, when it showed up as a shit or nerve, they talked themselves out of giving the feedback at that moment. Now we're four months later and they don't see a path forward with him and they missed the opportunity for a performance plan. They missed the opportunity for because they were unwilling to have those conversations when they saw them. So now it's going to be complete disruption to his department and, you know, anything beyond a termination at this point would be inauthentic for them. Talk about it.

Jared Ward: 47:00

So in a B test right there. I think this is such a good example not eating the shit or dwarves, not addressing that challenged executive and their perspective of him. You could have done something like this, could an early conversation like that, Minimal disruption. Now four months later it's like oh, this is disrupting the business for the unforeseeable future.

Chad Brown: 47:23

Yes, yes, and I'm not saying if they would have said it earlier and got him on a performance plan and you know all that, I'm not saying he would have worked out. I'm just saying he would have had. He would have given him the dignity of an opportunity to see what's not working and change it and and and become committed to what the business or what the company and the team is all about. It would have given him that opportunity and he deserves that opportunity. People on your team deserve the dignity of the feedback that you have for them.

Chad Brown: 47:59

If you're holding the feedback back, you think so little of them. Does that make sense? Yeah, if you're not telling them how it is and what you see in a kind way, in a way that you're connected to them and you're for them. But if you don't do that, you think so little of them. And then I asked the question why are you hiring people you think so little of? Well, you must think little of yourself or your vision or your company. I'm not trying to be a dick here. I'm just saying this is like the truth If nobody, not many people, are willing to break down what you're up to in this way, to show to show you like hey, you, you're in control here, you have the power and all of. If you follow these trails, it shows how little you believe in what you're up to Yep.

Jared Ward: 48:55

Well, I think we're actually out Yep Right at time. But, chad, thank you so much for the conversation, thanks for having me that was awesome. Man Appreciate our friendship. I need a friend like Chad who will give you that real time feedback, so I recommend it. Chad, where can everybody find you?

Chad Brown: 49:16

LinkedIn is a great place to find me. I'm hanging out on there, hanging out on Instagram. I also have a podcast called Founders League that you've been on. That's mainly on YouTube and then on all the podcast platforms as well.

Jared Ward: 49:32

Awesome, okay, well, I'll link those in the description of this podcast episode. But thanks for thanks for coming on, man, yeah.

Chad Brown: 49:37

Thank you for having me now. This is fun.

Jared Ward: 49:39

I love talking with you.

Chad Brown: 49:41

Okay, I'll see you next time.